UH_One False Step_Michelle Barnes

February 27, 2015

Malachi Crawford

00:00:02 Okay, February 27, 2015. For the purpose of this interview, can you please tell us your name, your occupation—current occupation—and your place of work?

Michelle Barnes

I am Michelle Barnes. My name is Michelle Anita Swain Vincent Barnes. And I am an artist, educator, arts administrator, co‑founder of the Community Artists’ Collective. I am the Executive Director of the organization. I was born in Austin, Texas in 1948. I’ve lived in Houston since about 1951 or ’2.

Malachi Crawford

Tell me a little bit about your educational—excuse me—residential background, where you grew up in terms of Houston, where you were located, and where you went to school.

Michelle Barnes

Um‑hm. Our family moved to Houston in the fifties into a rental home on East Alabama, 3206. The house still stands. And it’s in the Third Ward area, adjacent to Cuney Homes and Texas Southern University. I graduates from Yates High School in 1966 and entered the University of Houston in the fall of that year, graduating in December of ’70.

Malachi Crawford

Can you describe life in Houston as you were growing up and then—and in the sixties?

Michelle Barnes

Um‑hm. Life was wonderful, probably—I didn’t—I wouldn’t term it boring, but it was predictable. It was a safe environment. I remember walking to school—to schools—from elementary at Blackshear and then Turner and then William E. Miller Junior High School and Yates High School. I say safe because I can remember doors being left unlocked, and then there was a time when, in the late fifties, early sixties, I was walking with a single key around my neck, as my other classmates did when our parents felt that we were responsible enough. And they were both working, in my household at least. And I came home from middle school by myself and let myself in and had a snack and got on my homework and played music. And it was wonderful.

Malachi Crawford

In terms of your neighborhood, can you describe the ethnic makeup of your neighborhood? And you went into some of the realities in terms of safety, but can you describe the ethnic makeup of your neighborhood and then life in your neighborhood?

Michelle Barnes

Um‑hm. Well, the house on Alabama was—I don’t remember any families other than African‑American, but it wasn’t a big deal. Knowing and caring about the people that I came to know, children and adults, was—it was wonderful. It was inspiring, now that I look back on it. We lived across the street from doctors—Dr. Minor and Dr. Higgins. There were other prominent people in the neighborhood: Dr. Wardlaw was around the corner; Elsa Ransom and her family around the corner on the same block with Alvia Wardlaw and her family who had just come to Texas Southern University, and I had yet to really meet and get to know. And then when we moved to the first home that my parents owned, on Wentworth Street near Tierwester, it was a transitional neighborhood. There were Anglos and some Jews—Jewish family who—families who lived in the neighborhood and were moving. So—and then when we moved in ’65 south of the bayou, it was the same kind of ethnic makeup: Jewish families, Anglo families, and increasingly more African‑American families.

Malachi Crawford

00:05:15 You mentioned that you went to college at the University of Houston.

Michelle Barnes

Yes.

Malachi Crawford

When you got to college, in terms of race relations specifically, can you describe the atmosphere on the campus at that time when you were there?

Michelle Barnes

It was a little tense. It was very different from the environment that I had experienced at Yates that was all African‑American and very nurturing. It was just business with rare exception. The professors were remote. It was difficult to—though I was confident about scheduling meetings with them to discuss my grades and the course and whatever—but especially the men were very remote. And I remember Dr. McCorkadell especially as being wonderful and caring and interested. And there was another woman who was a social worker who was very supportive and Hal Stewart in the art department, because at that time you could take art classes without having to declare an arts major. I was interested in art, having experienced art at home, rather than at school in high school or middle school except in music. And so I took some of those classes, and that made all the difference in the world really—to be in a smaller kind of environment at this burgeoning university with all this construction and all these changes that were going on physically and otherwise on campus.

Malachi Crawford

Do you recall any advice that your parents gave you before going to the University of Houston in terms of success and/or race relations?

Michelle Barnes

00:07:21 No, not specifically, I don’t. My brother and I were convinced that we could do anything. We could go anywhere. We were expected to be respectful and confident and making our own decisions. So with my dad’s experience particularly, coming from a very poor rural environment in Dale, Texas, attending Huston‑Tillotson, aspiring to be a doctor, not having been prepared by those Lockhart and Dale schools for that kind of rigorous curriculum, going to the military, maturing, expanded—having an expanded view of the world after that experience, and in the Philippines particularly—and coming back, finishing H‑T, and attending and finishing at University of Texas as the first African‑American to graduate in the School of Social Work in the ‘50s, his view was communicated in rather parable terms—not hard, you’ve got to do this and be aware of this—it was just, live life. Walk this journey. It’s your turn. And anything that you want to do, we’re here for you. But it’s your decision. You make the decisions. So I had the opportunity through a summer study skills program in Knoxville, Tennessee, that was two consecutive summers, to go to Eastern Seaboard schools, primarily women’s colleges and universities, and chose to stay in Texas on more familiar cultural ground. That was a conscious decision. Rather than to go to a different geography, I could project what those experiences would be, an awesome academic experience and terrible socially. And I was prioritizing marriage and career. And it didn’t take a move—a drastic move like that—in order to reach those goals. So it was my decision to go there, and I was focused on reaching those goals. So in spite of all of the turmoil of the sixties that was going on, I lived at home. After that freshman orientation week in the dorm with Lynn Eusan as my roommate and meeting—being acquainted with the college environment—I chose to stay at home and use the scholarship that I had to pay for tuition and books rather than housing. It just made sense. We were just blocks away, and I was driving then and riding a bicycle. So it was a practical, economic decision that proved to be pretty awesome.

Malachi Crawford

You mentioned other students. And so can you describe what relations were like with other African‑American students at the time? I mean, was there a sense of unity or camaraderie or—what were relations like with other African‑American students in your experience?

Michelle Barnes

Very cordial. There was a diverse African-American population on campus, people from different parts of the state, the country. And people had different goals and aspirations and intentions. And there were—

00:11:54 (end of audio one)

00:00:00 (begin audio two)

Michelle Barnes

—the scholars. And there were the free thinkers. And there were the rabble‑rousers. And there were the card players. And there were the dancers and the clowns—just much—much like high school (laughs)—that same kind of categorization, if you will—yeah, but wonderful, wonderful people. Um‑hm.

Malachi Crawford

So the sixties were, for many, this time of burgeoning social protests in the country—and around numerous issues. There were student movements. There were movements against—and this is what this oral history deals with—they’re being there more. There were movements with respect to Civil Rights, with respect to women’s right. And so in terms of politics, protests, or activism, either on campus or in the community, were you involved in any activism and/or did you encounter any social protests? Or were you exposed to that?

Michelle Barnes

Yeah. Well, of course I was exposed to it. There were many activities that I chose not to participate in. I became more socially active and a protester when a child died at a dump. It was in a Sunnyside area neighborhood. And as I recall, it was an early, if not the first, encounter with Reverend Lawson, who brought the information to our student group that I was a part of. It was a group called AABL, as I recall—African-Americans for Black Liberation. He brought the information to the group to solicit support, to connect with the community where this incident had occurred, protesting the dumping in the neighborhood in the first place, and it was ignited because—the protests were ignited because a child had died in a pool of water that had developed there after a rain. And the children were playing in this dump that was in their neighborhood, instead of a park. So as a young woman who was looking forward to raising a family and being very family oriented myself, that touched me—more than anything else that was going on, on campus, that we were structuring ourselves to make changes in, I had hoped, an orderly, productive way on campus. And I had helped to organize and charter the Deltas on the campus but chose not to pledge. It just wasn’t that big a deal. It was having that vehicle there for others who wanted or needed that. My mother was a Delta, so that’s why I decided to do that, but I’ve never pledged Delta. And Lynn facilitated it, along with Renee Diviney and others, the development of AKAs, as another way for young women to be supported on campus, to have some vehicles for social interaction—and work on campus—to be part of the panel and the council.

Malachi Crawford

As best you can recall, with respect to social protests going on in Houston during the mid‑sixties, how did Houstonians respond to the Vietnam War from your perspective? That’s a large question.

Michelle Barnes

00:05:02 It is a large question. You know, young people are pretty selfish and self‑centered. And I had some of that. I tried to be true to my personal goals, connecting with people as much as I could without interfering and getting off—without being interfered with and getting off track. So at the time, I was engaged to a young man who lived outside the city. He was from Georgia and was going to school in Mississippi and decided, because he wasn’t doing well in school, to go into the service. I could relate because that was my dad’s story. So because my dad had come back unscathed, unharmed, it was—of his right mind and physically okay—I didn’t really think of the Vietnam War as a threat to him or something that was going to jeopardize our future. And in fact he had expressed interest in going into Special Services in the military and going to Crete. So it provided an opportunity, I thought, for us to travel together. My dad, on the other side, was suggesting that I needed to finish my education. He was suggesting that I finish my education, that if it was love, it was going to last, and we didn’t have to marry right away. But my fiancé finally decided to go to Vietnam. And there was a sense of urgency that we do get married, because he said, “In case something happens to me, I want you to benefit from it.” I didn’t hear that part of it. What I heard was he’d like to get married, and we’ll go to Crete. So he did ultimately decide to go to Vietnam after we got married and—in May of ’68—and he was shipped out in June of ’68 to his first tour in Vietnam. And then I started paying closer attention to what was going on—writing to him every day, receiving letters frequently from him, calls infrequently. I started paying closer attention to the news and horrific stories about the deaths and atrocities of war. War became real to me, not an opportunity to get a good education or a home, the way that had been the case with my family—my dad and mom. So—I’m sorry. I may have gotten away from the question.

Malachi Crawford

No, it’s—actually you did answer the question.

Michelle Barnes

Okay.

Malachi Crawford

And that’s—how did you understand the Vietnam War? And it’s a personal question.

Michelle Barnes

Yeah. I didn’t understand the history, the interference in—I didn’t understand the culture, as I do now. I didn’t understand that the people in Vietnam had been approached by and colonized in some sense by France and other countries and that they were pushing back, that America had an enormous military force that was being dumped on—these little people—physically little people—who had every right to defend themselves and stand their ground. It was—I knew a lot of people who didn’t come back from the war. There were young people who were concerned about having to maybe leave home to not go to war, because there was this—lottery. You know, if they were—their number was drawn—they had to go whether they were in school or whether they were the last male in the family. Well, there were certain exceptions to that—what was the name of that?

Malachi Crawford

Oh, is it conscientious objector?

Michelle Barnes

No, it’s—when you’ve got—you’ve got to register with the federal government, and you’re given a number upon registration. If your number is called, you have to go.

Malachi Crawford

Right, the draft.

Michelle Barnes

The draft, yeah. Um‑hm. So the conscientious objectors were the ones who were willing to leave—flee the country—go to Canada, go to Africa, go to Europe, wherever—to escape the draft and become expats. But anyway, because of what was going on at TSU and people—friends that I had on that campus—there were protests, a lot of protests going on at TSU, probably a lot more than I saw at the University of Houston. But eventually there was a melding of those who were engaged in civil protests becoming engaged in a larger argument against the war so that—

00:11:55 (end of audio two)

00:00:00 (begin audio three)

Michelle Barnes

—the work expanded from a core of what was happening on campus that was unjust to what was happening in the larger community with the death of the child in the dump situation and the larger—even larger—realm of protest and concern about the war—the Civil Rights era and then the war.

Malachi Crawford

From your perspective, did African-Americans make up a significant number of those protesting the war and Vietnam in Houston? And in general, how did African-Americans respond to the Vietnam War? You yourself mentioned that there—you know, obviously people had families—family members—going to the war.

Michelle Barnes

00:01:03 Um‑hm. I think that there were mixed feelings about it because, as was the case in my family, the men went to war. They signed up. They volunteered to defend the country, to establish themselves as men for whatever their individual reasons were, to have a better shot at an education, to have the benefits associated with being a veteran for housing and other resources. I had never seen or heard the kind of opposition to being in the military as I heard from my generation. So I became conscious of their rationale, their thinking about it. They were already in school, so, I mean, it wasn’t that they were expecting to benefit from having been in the military after the war. They were concerned about the issue of war on the front end. You know, why are we over there? And it was heightened by Muhammad Ali’s pronouncements and resistance to that—that imposition to his career plans, essentially as a heavyweight fighter.

Malachi Crawford

Do you recall the first time that you heard about Muhammad Ali, that you were aware of who he was?

Michelle Barnes

I met Muhammad Ali when I worked for Mr. Boze in one of his hatcheck concessions at a hotel. (laughs) He came over and flirted. I was in college. Yeah. But I didn’t know who he was. I just thought he was another guy who was just doing that—annoying. I was reading, and he came over (laughs)—didn’t have a hat to check.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. That’s interesting because there’s a personal encounter before you were aware that he was the heavyweight champion of the world, or at least former heavyweight champion of the world.

Michelle Barnes

Exactly. Um‑hm.

Malachi Crawford

When did you become aware of his sort of political protest or opposition to—or moral opposition to—to the war in Vietnam? And what was your response? How did you understand it?

Michelle Barnes

00:04:06 Well, it was—I didn’t follow him especially in the news but remember hearing and reading about his protest. And I thought it was a very heroic stand, very heroic position. It wasn’t what Elvis Presley chose to do, but we were—had a different frame of reference. And he had the right.

00:04:49 (end of audio three)

00:00:00 (begin audio four)

Malachi Crawford

As far as you can recall, where did students and/or faculty at the University of Houston fall on the issue of Muhammad Ali’s opposition to the Vietnam War, as far as you can recall?

Michelle Barnes

Well, it’s not clear. I mean, I would suspect that there was division in thinking about that. As far as the students were concerned, I think that there was a show of unity between most of the African-American students and a good segment of the Anglos who— (phone ringing)

00:01:07 (end of audio four)

00:00:00 (being audio five)

Malachi Crawford

Okay.

Michelle Barnes

I would say that there was agreement in protesting the war between those disparate factions on campus. And it provided yet another layer of overlapping unity because there had been a similar kind of overlap in support from that sector of the student community in terms of social justice issues. But I remember there being conversation on the social justice issues that—you know, we’ve got African-American students; we have to lead this fight. You cannot sing to the—talk to the Anglo students on campus. And they understood that. But in terms of the war, there was this regalvanizing and unifying philosophy that it was worthy of our united front against the war.

Malachi Crawford

Do you recall the day that Ali refused induction into the armed forces here in Houston?

Michelle Barnes

No, I don’t, I’m sad to say. Do you remember what year that was?

Malachi Crawford

It was April 1967.

Michelle Barnes

00:01:32 So that was still my freshman year. Um‑hm. It’d been a very tumultuous year anyway (laughs)—on a lot of different levels. So, no, I don’t remember.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. As best you can recall, where did the clerical community or the religious community stand with respect to the Vietnam War? And I’m specifically speaking about Black ministers. In terms of, if you attended any religious services, was there commentary on the war itself and/or other social justice issues?

Michelle Barnes

Not as I can recall. I remember consciously deciding not to continue to go to church when I got to college. I was raised in—at Wesley Chapel AME Church on Dowling. It still stands. And as a young adult, I decided that I was not going to continue to go there and focus on other aspects of my consciousness and development. It wasn’t a very satisfying experience going there. I had a lot of questions that were not being resolved. So, no, I don’t remember what their stance was. But later, in the seventies, when I consciously decided to rejoin a church and decided to join Pilgrim because of its social justice stance and history, I became more aware that there was some division in the clergy about that and about Martin Luther King and other issues—much—I likened the division to Booker T. Washington and Du Bois.

Malachi Crawford

In general, if it did at all, how did your exposure to social protests of the Vietnam War in Houston influence or shape your views about Vietnam and the war itself?

Michelle Barnes

Through the news reports on the Vietnam War, I came to understand atrocities of war. Death became more real—upheaval, destruction—as a practical person, it just was abhorrent—the idea of war, the disruption of lives, systems, and having to rebuild from rubble just didn’t make sense. So I couldn’t even get to the political aspect. I’m still wrestling with politics of life in the face of war today. It’s very challenging. I’m done—

Malachi Crawford

During the latter part of the sixties, the early seventies, were a number of issues, I imagine, of competing interest with respect to social justice issues in the African-American community. By prior movement, there’s obviously the Vietnam War, issues perhaps of police brutality, you mentioned issues of sort of neglect with respect to the African-American community. During this period, did the war in Vietnam become a central point of focus for African-Americans, or was it marginal to other issues from your perspective going on here in Houston?

Michelle Barnes

00:07:14 I think that it was probably marginal, respecting other issues, because the war came on the cusp of the social changes associated with the Civil Rights movement. Our neighborhoods were changing drastically. Instead of being able to walk to have our services and needs met, we had to drive farther distances. Our communities weren’t as cohesive, as comprehensive. So there were other—lots of other kinds of things that had to be considered. Model Cities was layered on that. So there were political forces that caused the changes that used to cause support. Our perspective on the government and our own more independent contributions to—as people—to the uplift and development of our physical neighborhoods was changing, being reevaluated. It wasn’t clear with all these things kind of swirling at the same time. So young men were having to go to war because of the draft. They were coming back—if they were coming back at all—different. In my own situation, it caused me to consider divorce. I didn’t know the concept of divorce. I hadn’t thought about that. But the person that I married was not the person who returned. I thought that he had more control over what was happening to him than obviously he did, but I didn’t understand that at the time. I just knew that our dreams were not unified anymore, our aspirations. So I had to focus on what was best for my family and my child—my situation—rather than what was going on. So I’m just one. But I think that that’s multiplied probably among lots of different families in our community here.

Malachi Crawford

I want to return very quickly to sort of a time and space that you mentioned earlier, and that was the—your job as in the hat check department. Okay, a couple of questions: What was this—can you kind of tell me a little bit more about this hotel in terms of its importance in the African-American community, significance, and also why would Muhammad Ali—why would you imagine Muhammad Ali coming to this particular space?

Michelle Barnes

00:10:36 Well, my dad introduced me to Mr. Bose—U. L. Bose—who was a local entrepreneur. And he had several hatcheck concessions at different venues. Eventually he had one at the Astrodome, and I was there in the club area. I also worked at the Warwick Hotel and at this other hotel, which I think was—I think the Crowne Plaza or something—a smaller hotel, an older hotel. And I think that Muhammad Ali was at the hotel for a press conference or some social event. I don’t know what the nature of it was. I was never informed about that when I got the call from Mr. Bose to—that I had an opportunity to work at one of those venues. So I just went and did what I was supposed to do and went home and studied and continued my life.

Malachi Crawford

00:11:40 Okay. In terms of race relations—and this will just kind of work things together—in terms of race relations in Houston during the sixties and the seventies, from your perspective, was this a time when—

00:12:16 (end of audio five)

00:00:00 (begin audio six)

Malachi Crawford

—we see in Houston improved race relations between the African-Americans and White Americans in the city of Houston around issues such as the Vietnam War and/or social justice? You mentioned on campus there was sort of a melding or coming together. Was that isolated to campus or, from your perspective, the city in and of itself? How did the city deal with the sixties and the seventies during this time?

Michelle Barnes

I’m reflecting on it, because, you know, when you’re in the moment, you don’t perceive things as you do when you’re remote from it. So looking back on it, my perception is that there were relationships with different racial groups going on and probably—well, I hate to think that they were better than the now. I’d like to think that there were—there were good then. There were good opportunities now. But I don’t really know. It seemed that there were effective, cordial, professional, social, different levels of conversations going on. In my family, for instance, as a social worker—my dad came in contact with lots of different groups in his profession because he was an early pioneer in the social work community. Most of his counterparts were Anglo or Jewish or Hispanic. And so I remember going to Jewish homes and Anglo homes and their coming to ours for different social kind of events. And I’m sure my dad had lots of meetings with people that I wasn’t privy to. But we interacted with people and had an opportunity to build relationships and find common ground. That’s the same process that applies today. But it seems that today there’s a lot more political impulse than social. People are getting together to feed the notion of diversity, not to feed the notion of values. This is strange.

00:02:46 (end of audio six)

Transcribed by AdeptWordManagement.com.

3

3206 East Alabama, Houston, TX........................................................................................................... 1

A

AABL (African-Americans for Black Liberation)......................................................................................... 4

activism.............................................................................................................................................. 4

AKAs (Alpha Kappa Alpha).................................................................................................................... 4

Ali, Muhammad................................................................................................................. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

Anglo........................................................................................................................................ 2, 8, 11

Anglos............................................................................................................................................ 2, 8

Astrodome......................................................................................................................................... 11

atrocities of war................................................................................................................................. 5, 9

Austin................................................................................................................................................ 1

B

bayou................................................................................................................................................. 2

Blackshear (Elementary School)............................................................................................................... 1

C

church................................................................................................................................................. 9

Civil Rights............................................................................................................................... 4, 7, 10

Community Artists’ Collective............................................................................................................... 1

conscientious objectors.......................................................................................................................... 6

Crete.................................................................................................................................................. 5

Cuney Homes...................................................................................................................................... 1

D

Dale, Texas......................................................................................................................................... 3

Deltas (sorority).................................................................................................................................... 4

Dr. Higgins......................................................................................................................................... 2

Dr. McCorkadell................................................................................................................................... 2

Dr. Minor............................................................................................................................................ 2

Dr. Wardlaw........................................................................................................................................ 2

draft.............................................................................................................................................. 6, 10

Du Bois (W. E. B.).............................................................................................................................. 9

E

ethnic makeup.................................................................................................................................. 1, 2

Eusan, Lynn..................................................................................................................................... 3, 4

F

freshman orientation week....................................................................................................................... 3

H

Huston‑Tillotson (University)................................................................................................................. 3

J

Jewish........................................................................................................................................... 2, 11

K

King, Martin Luther.............................................................................................................................. 9

Knoxville, Tennessee............................................................................................................................ 3

M

Miller, William E., Junior High School................................................................................................... 1

Model Cities...................................................................................................................................... 10

P

Pilgrim (Church).................................................................................................................................. 9

politics.......................................................................................................................................... 4, 10

Presley, Elvis....................................................................................................................................... 8

protest............................................................................................................................................. 7, 8

protests.................................................................................................................................... 4, 5, 6, 9

R

race relations............................................................................................................................... 2, 3, 11

Ransom, Elsa....................................................................................................................................... 2

Reverend Lawson.................................................................................................................................. 4

S

social justice.......................................................................................................................... 8, 9, 10, 11

social worker.................................................................................................................................. 2, 11

Stewart, Hal......................................................................................................................................... 2

summer study skills program.................................................................................................................. 3

Sunnyside........................................................................................................................................... 4

T

Texas Southern University.................................................................................................................. 1, 2

Third Ward......................................................................................................................................... 1

Tierwester (Street)................................................................................................................................. 2

TSU................................................................................................................................................... 6

Turner (Elementary School).................................................................................................................... 1

U

University of Houston............................................................................................................. 1, 2, 3, 6, 8

University of Texas............................................................................................................................... 3

V

Vietnam..................................................................................................................... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

W

Wardlaw, Alvia.................................................................................................................................... 2

Warwick Hotel................................................................................................................................... 11

Washington, Booker T.......................................................................................................................... 9

Wentworth Street.................................................................................................................................. 2

Wesley Chapel AME Church on Dowling................................................................................................. 9

Y

Yates High School............................................................................................................................ 1, 2